Northstar V8 in a 1991 MR2

Project MV8R: The Background Story

Last edit was 06/19/2009.  At this time, this page is not complete, and more will be added

The beginning: Sports Car Purism

I absolutely loved the body styling, and I started reading about these cars.   This was when I learned about "moment of inertia" and the reasons why a mid-engine car has such huge handling and traction advantages over a front-engine, rear wheel drive layout like conventional sports cars.  

    You might notice that Indy cars, Forumula 1, and the hyper/super exotic sports cars are all mid-engine.  They get better transient response (can change directions quicker), better traction, better braking (the rear brakes do more on mid-engine cars than front-engine cars), and better handling.  You might also notice that Top Fuel dragsters are mid-engine (better traction and safety).
        

    These days you can get a Pantera in rough shape for around $30,000 and it will be almost 40 years old.  You can get a decent one for around $40,000.   You could also buy a nice Acura NSX for around $25,000 to $30,000.  However, they have a 3.0 liter V6, and not a V8 or 12 cylinder.
       

    I also like the styling that goes with mid-engine cars.  Usually, they have a short hood, and long deck (rear), since the engine is behind the passenger cabin.  Compare this to a typical front engine sports car, like the Corvette.  It has a (very) long hood, and short deck since the engine is in front.  In order to get it to handle better, Corvette engineers moved the front suspension forward, which lengthens the front of the car even MORE!  The engine is mostly located  behind the front axle centerline.   I have driven Corvettes, and that super long hood is very strange, as it feels like I am driving from the backseat!

V8 Fieros

      I have looked at Fieros, and found that the Fiero guys have been doing V8 swaps for many years.  The only problem is that I am not crazy about Fiero build quality or handling.  For example, I notice that when a Fiero hits 90mph or more, the headlights pop up on thier own from the wind!!!  Stil, this is the LEAST expensive way to get/create a mid-engine V8 sports car.

Enter the Toyota MR2
        Next up the price/quality food chain of mid-engine cars is the Toyota MR2, originally introduced in 1984.  There are currently 2 or 3 known V8 swaps into this 1st generation (mark 1, or mk1 for short) MR2.  You can see one of them at the Project Toystar site  The mk1 handles fantastic, and is very lightweight, and has great (1980's) build quality.  

The Baby Ferrari: The 2nd generation MR2
        In 1990, Toyota revised thier popular MR2 2 seat mid-engine sports car with a sleeker, larger body.   I remember when this car came out.  I was in college and me and a car buddy of mine thought the MR2 turbo was cool, and had lots of power (200 was a lot back then!).  

    I really liked this second generation car (the Mark2 or mk2 for short), but I didn't buy one because I didn't like the whimpy 4 cylinder, 2.0 liter turbo motor (turns out that its not as whimpy as I thought).  At the time, I always felt that a "real" mid engine sports car should have 8 or preferably 12 cylinders like a Ferrari or Lamborghini.

    Going beyond the MR2, up the food chain, you find the Acura NSX.  What a fantastic mid-engine sports car!  Kind of expensive to buy and to maintain.  They are V6 powered.   Maybe I will try this V8 swap with an NSX shell someday!

    Up the food chain some more and you find the Pantera.  Beyond that you get into the hyper exotics with huge $$ price tags.

1990 Toyota Supra Turbo:  Goes like hell, handles like crap

    In 1999, I attempted to become a car dealer by buying cars at auction, and re-selling for a markup.  This idea was a miserable failure, and I ended up with a 1990 Toyota Supra Turbo by accident.  This car was fun, as it accelerated very hard, and was fast.  The problem was that it handled like crap, and its brakes were woefully inadequate.  The damn thing weighed around 3700 lbs!!!     However, this car was my introduction to Turbo charged cars.   

    At this point, I had only read about turbo cars, but never owned one.  I was very impressed with the power and torque of the 7M-GTE, the predecessor to the legendary 2JZ that came in later Supras and Lexuses.  I put a HKS metal head gasked on this engine, and lapped the valves, and replaced some other seals, as well as re-shimming the valves.  I also re-painted the car. I sold the car in 2004.

Project MR6

        Then in 2005, I read about Jeff Hartman's project "MR6" where he installed a 3.0 liter Toyota V6 into the MR2 mk2.  He "twin-charged" it with a supercharger and turbo SIMULTANEOUSLY.  The end result was 600 hp and heads that were lifting at full boost.  Its a fantastic project, and you can read about it in his book:  How to Tune and Modify Engine Management Systems

My 1993  MR2 Turbo in Turquoise Pearl Metallic

        At that point, in Feb of 2005, I decided to purchase a MR2, with the intent of doing a V6 turbo swap. I could have Supra power/torque, in a lighter car, and MR2 handling and braking!!  I joined the MR2 Owner's Club forum and started learning and looking for a car.  I bought a 1993 MR2 Turbo in March of 2005. 

    This is the teal colored (actually Turquoise Pearl Metallic) car pictured on this site.  I bought the 93 model, as the 1994 and 95 versions (USA) were too expensive, but I wanted the mechanical and electrical revisions that started in this model year.  I got revised rear suspension tie-rod geometry (more nuetral handling), larger brakes, a Limited Slip Differential, a revised shorter shifter, and a revised electrical system/wiring. 

V8's in MR2s!!

        I bought my car with the intention of doing the V6 swap.  While I was researching the V6 project I found project Toystar.  This is a Cadillac Northstar V8 engine and the Northstar automatic transaxle, installed into a 1st generation Toyota MR2.  This project is still on-going, but the car runs and drives!   In 2008, a guy in Europe did a Toyota 4.0 liter V8 (the 1UZ-FE engine code) into his Mk1.  It also runs/drives!!   However, he did a lot of tube frame work to make it happen.  Nevertheless, its still really cool.

        In 2006-2007, I discovered that on the MR2 owners club forum, and the British Two Brutal forum, that there were a couple of different guys attempting to install a Toyota 4.0 liter V8 (the 1UZ-FE engine code) into thier 2nd generation MR2s!!.  I was very excited to see this and watched thier projects with keen interest.  Unfortunately, none of these projects involving the 2nd generation MR2 were ever completed.

The Plunge:  Taking a Walk on the Wild Side

        One day, in late 2007, I started wondering if the guys trying to fit a 1UZ into the Mk2 body were doing it the hard way.  The biggest problem that I could see was the the 1UZ was simply too long of an engine to fit transversely between the frame rails and shock towers of the 2nd gen MR2.  The 1st gen was actually wider in the engine compartment!  The Fieros are also wider.  I thought I might take a different approach.  Instead of worrying about "keeping it in the family (Toyota V8) I wondered if a shorter V8 of ANY make could be found that might fit the car.  Then the car would not have to be cut to drop the engine in. 

     I started searching the internet for lengths and widths of various V8 engines.  I found that Audi has an interesting habit of making very, very short V8 engines for two reasons:  

     1) they wanted to fit them into 4 cylinder engine compartments

     2) they wanted to keep the engine from hanging out in front of thier front axles (Quattro drivetrains) too far because it affects handling badly to have that much weight out there.  

     Notice that this is in contrast to the Corvette (engine behind front axle), which creates a very long hood and short deck.  Audi's problem is that the engine has to be in front of the front axle, as it is a driving axle.  Subaru solved this weight imbalance problem by using boxer arrangement 4 cylinder engines.  These engines are only 2 cylinders long, instead of being 4 cylinders long as in most other Japanese cars.  The Mitsubishi EVO's mount the engine transversely, but use a conventional inline 4.  The same was done with the Toyota Celica All-Trac.  

Look at the new Nissan GTR (Skyline).  It has 2 driveshafts, and the front axle passes through the bellhousing!  Its got a VERY complicated and heavy drivetrain.  Anyway, getting off subject, so.....

Enter the Audi V8 ABZ, then Whoops!  Exit the Audi

    A trip to the wreckers confirmed that the Audi's were compact enough.  I then started a thread on the MR2 Owner's club and on the 034 Motorsports Audi tuning forum called Motorgeek.    I found a very interesting V8 swap on this forum.  A guy "Hilly" decided to swap a 1997 Audi V8 (engine code ABZ) into his 1981 Lotus Esprit, which came with a non-turbo 4 cylinder motor.  He decided to do this because the V8 gave him a lot more power, and the 4 cylinder Lotus engine was very expensive to re-build or replace.  He documented his build in his thread with a lot of detailed text and photos.  It is a very inspiring project, and I recommend you read it to get an idea of what it takes to do a swap like this.  The build thread can be found here.

I had prior knowledge that the Fiero guys had been doing V8 swaps for some time, so I went to a website of a guy/company that created V8 kits for Fieros.  I discovered that there was recently a revolution in the Fiero V8 Swap.  Originally, the Fiero guys were just adapting a V8 to work with the stock Fiero Getrag transaxles (I think there were 2 or 3 different transaxles in Fieros).  The revolution was now they were using the GM F40 6-speed transaxle from the 2006 Pontiac G6.  I also found out that the F40 was shorter in overall length than the stock MR2 turbo transaxle (the E153), so that would allow more room for an adaptor plate and longer engine!

I found that the Audi ABZ V8 was only 20.6 inches long, and so I purchased a 1997 version with 70,000 miles on it (about $2500 at the time), and I purchased a brand new GM F40, for only $400!

The thing that I did not know, and could not know until I had the engine in my hands was that there was no room for a jackshaft to run alongside of the engine in a transverse application.  I also discovered some other problems.

     The details of why this engine won't work are in my newsletter, but essentially there are adaptor plate bolt pattern problems, starter location problems, and most importantly, axle clearance problems.  When I purchased the engine, I was pretty sure I could deal with the starter and the adaptor plate, but the axle issue was unknown until I had an engine in my garage to measure.  I thought I could solve this problem too.  These problems can be solved with a lot of custom machined parts (lots of $$!).   After some more thought, I realized that I should start with a V8 that was offered in a transverse application from the OEM.  This would solve the starter, and axle clearance issues.

      The final kicker was in October of 2008.  I found out that the transaxle I was using (the GM F40) bolted up to the Cadillac Northstar WITHOUT an expensive adaptor plate.  I did not know this back when I bought the Audi.  I decided that cutting the car, and welding new doublers in place was an easier solution than trying to make the Audi work.  I blew $2500 for the engine (anyone reading this wanna buy it??), $160 for a clutch, and $400 for a flywheel.

    If I had known that the Northstar bolted up back when I was considering buying the Audi, I might have re-thought the project.  Sometime in the spring of 2008, I met a guy that worked and/or owned a shop in Reno that built Ford GT40 replicas.  These are not cheap replicas, and can average $50,000 to $100,000 or more.  I was telling him about my project and the axle issue.  He said something that I really stuck in my mind.   He said "If you want it bad enough, you will find a way to make it work."

1991 Toyota MR2 na: The Test Mule

    In mid 2008, I decided to try to find an inexpensive MR2 mk2 to experiment with.  My 93 Turbo was too nice, and I liked driving it too much.  In October of 2008, I bought a 1991 Toyota MR2 NA (normally aspirated) and pulled the motor.  This is the red car you see in my pictures.

Enter the Northstar 

In December of 2008, I decided to use the Cadillac Northstar (N* for short).  This was a difficult decision to make, as it meant abandoning an engine, flywheel, and clutch that I had spent $3060 on.  I hope to sell the Audi V8 soon.  I managed to recover the $400 I spent on the flywheel by selling it.  I might be able to get something for the clutch.  When I was making this decision, I kept remembering the words of the GT40 guy (above).  It turns out that switching to the Northstar was the right choice.  And I was able to make some good progress very quickly.

     As of January, 2009, I have mated the transaxle to the N*, and cut my 91na  to make it fit.  Fortunately, it did not require a lot of cutting. I am going to weld back in, some sheet metal to replace the parts I cut out, and I also plan to add some doublers, to make up for the loss in strength. I should end up with something stronger than the original, but maybe a couple of pounds heavier.  

     The sheet metal on unibody cars is pretty thin, so adding doublers + welds won't add a lot of weight.  Currently, I am still fine-tuning the engine placement.  Right now, there is a problem with clearing the rear bolt-on crossmember.  I may have to fabricate a new crossmember from tubular steel.  If I do, I will provide plans and instructions, and photos in my Project Kit.  After that, the axles will be sent out for modification.  I also need to work out the clutch and flywheel.  Since my car is going to be used on the street 99% of the time, a button-style race clutch won't be optimal. 

    I bought 3 different alternators in an effort to find one that put out enought amps, had a serpentine pulley, was easy to wire, and could be mounted tightly to the block.  I don't have a a lot of room on the front side of the engine between it and the firewall.  The alternator sticks out the furthest on the engine, past the valve covers.  I mounted it temporarily, just enough to hold it in place for test fitting the engine.  I decided that I needed to figure out the belt routing, as I eliminated the power steering pump.  I came up with a plan that I am not 100% happy with, but it will get the job done, and should work for the life of the engine.  I also found the best alternator for the job.

As of April 2009, the project is to the point where the engine and transaxle have been mounted and the car is supporting the weight of the drivetrain. I am now working out the flywheel, clutch, and clutch actuation. I still have more to complete on the engine mounts. Once those are done, I will figure out the intermediate shaft support. Once that is done, I can determine the length of the axles, and design the new axles. I am currently researching axle design and finding a good axle maker.

World's First 1991-1999 (mark 2 or second generation) V8 MR2!

Another thing happened in December of 2008. A guy by the name of Mike, who lives in Florida, announced that he had a running, driving second generation V8 MR2! I quickly realized, that as far as anyone knew, his is the World's First 2nd Gen V8 MR2 !

Here are some photos of Mike's Car. I really have to commend Mike on his awesome fabrication skills. The level at which he took is project is WAY beyond Project MV8R. The difference between Mike's project and mine is that Mike mounted his Audi ABZ longitudinally (north-south) rather than transversely (east-west) which is the stock MR2 arrangement, and the arrangement I am using. He also used an Audi longitudinal gear box.

Please understand, that this is NOT my car, nor my project, but he did get the original idea of using the Audi V8 from my original MR2 Owner's Club thread exploring the idea of using the Audi.

More to come, please check back as I am continuously updating this page.